Bruce Duensing – Becoming The Change We Want to See

Bruce Duensing has been writing about UFOs and anomalies for many years now. His old blog, Intangible Materiality, was decommissioned, but A Transit Of Contingencies carries on his explorations into the nature of time, memory, cognition, and language as they relate to our relationship with the anomalous. If the study of UFOs is to continue, and we don’t want to run the same scripts forever, we need to take a look at the instrument (our minds and the way we experience things) that is gathering and interpreting the data.

In a completely informal conversation, we discussed the problem of identifying something of unknown origin for which all of our frames of reference are from ourselves and our culture. Duensing asked how we might escape the trap of our senses, memories, and subconscious filtering, and suggested some solutions. He also lamented the fact that most people prefer simple and uncomplicated explanations. He introduced the concept that fear may be a sort of “carrier wave” for experiencing the unknown, both from our perspective and perhaps more importantly, from the view of any non-human intelligence behind it.

We discussed what we might ask an “alien” if given a chance. “I’d ask it what it thought I was,” he said, which might give us a perspective from outside of human experience. I thought that I might instead tell the entity that I didn’t believe in it and see what happened.

During the interview, Bruce said “There is a lot of unspoken nihilism going around UFO research” which is something I want to put on a T-shirt! I gained much hope and perspective during this 2-hour talk, and would be quite interested to see the comments.

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14 Responses to Bruce Duensing – Becoming The Change We Want to See

  1. Paul Kimball says:

    Great show, Greg. You should have Bruce on your rotation of semi-regular guests! I particularly liked the “what would you ask an alien” question. My answer? “Why?” and then see what it said.


    • Greg says:

      He will definitely be on again. I really liked this interview, especially since I had to keep up with him for most of the show.

      Good alien question. Would it understand any of our questions? This is a problem with thought experiments!

      • gheron says:

        The novel Star’s Reach explores this idea of how and if we could communicate (along with other themes, UFO and non-UFO). It’s a great read.

    • Gheron says:

      I like to think that my first response to anything claiming to be an alien would be “prove it”. However, it would probably be “have you got any of those cool suits in my size” or “can I have maple syrup with my pancakes”.

  2. John Randall says:

    As you’ve already expressed Greg, but this was one of the best interviews /discussions on RM.
    I’ll have to listen to it again a couple of times to truly absorb it all. The thing that struck me about about Mr. Deunsing’s retelling what happened to him in regards to his Son’s passing, that as with many occurrences of the unusual, at least in my case it always seems to happen when there is deep sorrow involved. Is that because it is that strongest emotion we have? Does it just strip away all our boundaries and leaves us open to “the collective” however you want to coin it (personal or impersonal, more like a wave or weather front you’ve both postulated).
    In regards to EEGs and those having a paranormal experience, has anyone ever used that in a deprivation tank or possibly more importantly with people in end of life hospice settings ( aka: Kubler-Ross’s five stages of dying)? I haven’t much luck finding any information on this subject.Thanks.

    • Greg says:


      I think any strong emotion may be opening the “carrier wave” as Bruce called it. It may also be that the sorrow is due to a connection to another person, which may open it up further.

      Don’t know of any EEG or EKG studies in regards to extremis states, but there are plenty on meditators. Good question.

      • John Randall says:

        Thanks Greg, and you’re quite right, any strong emotion could possibly trigger a response to an anomalous event( and maybe the other way around). In regards to “Have any ufo photos look identical” even if atmospheric and camera distortion comes into play,the first one that came to mind was The 2nd Trent photo 1950 and the 1954 Rouen photo ( given that both were authentic that is). But as Bruce said, even if the photos are “real”,it unfortunately doesn’t tell us much in regards to what it actually is (a tulpa due to the meme being implanted into the public, government project,etc.). Here are the photos to compare:

  3. Kandinsky says:

    Good call for a guest and overdue too. In my opinion, Bruce is one of the great thinkers in the field and isn’t afraid to put his ideas out there. His writing style doesn’t lend itself to appealing to the masses and, I suspect, many are put off by not recognising his references. Nevertheless, should anyone spend time reading his ideas, they’ll find some novelty in them and aspects that might resonate in their own ideas.

    When I say ‘novelty,’ that’s not to associate him with frivolity. I mean these thoughts can add novelty in a similar way that UFO experiences can inject novelty into the subsequent thoughts and lives of percipients.

    I love the coincidence right here as I was listening to Bruce’s old Paratopia interview yesterday morning!

  4. gheron says:

    I like it when an interview goes over lots of the ideas I have been mulling when walking the dog. It serves to confirm just how brilliant I am and that all my filtering mechanisms are fully functional:).

    Many of you may know about this, but it was new to me. A project that looked at monitoring abductees and its rather predictable outcome –

  5. Red Pill Junkie says:

    Count me among those who listened to this episode a couple of times, in order to try and absorb the richness of what was being shared by Bruce’s incredible insights.

    This idea of “an intelligence devoid of sentience” is actually something the late Mac Tonnies wrote about in Post-Human Blues. At the time I wasn’t able to understand what Mac was trying to say –but now I think I’m getting there.

    That strong emotions could be “the wave carrier” or the trigger capable of ‘collapsing the wave function’ is IMO a very important clue of the puzzle. Now, someone like Nick Redfern could posit that the phenomenon seems to be deliberately designed in order to trigger a fearful reaction in the witness –for the purpose of predation, Nick speculates. Or maybe we should see it from the point of view of Meister Eckart, and the demons tormenting us are the result of our own resistance during the ‘data-transfer’ as Bruce puts it; once we stop resisting, perhaps the demons transform us into angels and we are ready to be illuminated.

    Re. Bigelow and Vallee, well… maaaaaybe there’s a good reason why they have kept their research under such clandestine conditions. Vallee’s position I can understand –he knows dealing with the visible UFO organizations is pointless and a waste of his time– but Bigelow? I dunno. I just don’t trust him, is all. And I think it’s wrong that the FAA sought to direct all potential UFO sightings to him, instead of someone like Dr. Haines at NARCAP.

    Bruce’s “Who am I?” question to an alien made me think, as strangely as it sounds, about Betty Hill’s Star Map. When the leader showed the map to Betty and asked her “where are you on this map?” and Betty was unable to answer, the leader then replied “if you don’t know where you are, there wouldn’t be any point in me telling you where I am.”

    Now, taking aside whether this exchange happened only inside Betty’s mind or not, perhaps the Star Map could be seen as a metaphor for inner knowledge: How are we supposed to ever understand ‘them’ (the aliens, the Other) if we don’t even know who we really are?

    Or is it that we need them as a mirror, in order to perceive ourselves –reflected through them– for the 1st time?

    Again, a wonderful show, and I wholeheartedly encourage you to have Bruce back as soon as possible.
    PS: Your own response to the alien (“I don’t believe in you!”) inevitably reminded me of that wonderful cartoon from the 1960’s, in which some little green men are kidnapping some poor fellow in a suit, and to the left side a white-coated scientist yells “don’t worry, Mr. Condon! Just tell them you don’t believe in them” 😛

    • Kandinsky says:

      ‘Bigelow and Vallee, well… maaaaaybe there’s a good reason why they have kept their research under such clandestine conditions.’

      There could be any number of reasons and the first one that springs to mind is ‘mind-your-business!’ They don’t owe anyone an explanation for their actions or plans. That Bigelow bought all the MUFON reports and data suggests he had a goal in mind as it’s all GIGO without some extra factor/ s. By that I mean there’s no clear way of separating ‘true’ UFO sighting reports from the higher percentage of typical misperceptions and hoaxes. Unless they are able to identify a potential residue (or incidents) of ‘unknowns,’ the database has no qualitative value.

      Bruce mentioned speaking to Colm Kelleher (Skinwalker Ranch) and that gives me an excuse to mention an idea I’ve been chewing over for a few years. Buckle in because it’s a fat, out there and what ifs.

      Vallee has described setting up an experiment to attract the attention of the ‘control system’ and stimulate a feedback system. There aren’t many details beyond it taking place in a secluded, California area. You’ll recall that his early work identified a pattern in reported experiences that identified such areas as high frequency.

      When I thought about what form of stimuli he could introduce, it crossed my mind that he’s often referred to psi aspects in these reported encounters. So how could someone communicate a psi response to generate a feedback signal?

      I thought of the ‘Philip Experiment’ and how a group of people had created a fictional thought-form with a history and a personality. They then conducted ‘seances’ to communicate with the ‘entity’ of ‘Philip.’ Initially, they had little success and then apparently made ‘contact’ with him. Knocks answering questions and so forth seemed to suggest that ‘Philip’ had taken on some sense of reality. In a sense, they’d created a feedback loop that manifested some physical identity in response to their beliefs.

      Is it possible that Vallee tried something similar? Instead of a ‘Philip,’ might he and his wife tried to anticipate/conjure/conceive of a UFO sighting? Or perhaps tried to invoke a physical signal of communication from the ‘control system?’

      A reason I began to think along those lines is that I don’t doubt his integrity. At the same time, it was hard to comprehend his support of the ‘Skinwalker Ranch’ reports. Why would someone with decades of critical and advanced thinking lend their support to something that appears so unbelievable?

      I wondered if there had been a collective experiment that sought to focus the attention of a greater audience and tried to recreate the ‘Philip’ effect at a more significant scale? A psy-op to see if a meme, in the collective consciousness of a sub-culture, could generate any measurable, observable ‘hits’ in reality.

      The Skinwalker Ranch book (and interviews), includes dozens of archetypal features from UFOs to portals to mythical animals and then dog-headed men and poltergeist activity. They had the hallmarks of myth and the features of well-trodden narrative fiction.

      I wondered if they’d released these memes into the sub-culture and then observed the site for any feedback? Is it possible they were trying to see if belief-systems could be given a brief life in reality?

      Anomalous experiences are thought, by some, to interact (or reflect) with our consciousness and thereby our belief systems. In Vallee’s speculations, he’s wondered if the ‘control system’ operates on the level of beliefs? Miles Lewis, Mike Swords (tangentially), Bruce, PK and a few others have circled similar thoughts.

      Of course, I’m not saying I stand by these speculations! They’re just some ideas that I’ve rattled around and I’m well aware of their shortcomings. It just seems that all we can do is toss ideas around, share them, and see if any ‘stick.’ 🙂

      • Red Pill Junkie says:

        Granted, Kandinsky: They (Bigelow and Vallee) don’t owe us anything. They could be looking into the matter in a very hush-hush manner. But how is that any better from the hypothetical ‘secret-government’ group created to investigate UFOs by ‘the baddies’? You know, the ones operating under a ‘need-to-know’ security measure, ensuring that any potential discovery will be reached at the slowest rate possible 😉

        Vallee is a scientist, first and foremost. He knows the scientific method thrives with openness and stifles when it has to obey non-disclosure clauses. Bigelow seems to be more influenced by a personal desire to know the truth –and perhaps see if he can profit from it.

        Planting fictional UFO-related narratives to see if the phenomenon reacts? From the author of Messengers of Deception himself, who warned us about cultist personalities could take advantage of the public’s will to believe? Next thing you’re gonna tell me is that he was an investor in Heaven’s Gate! 😛

        Yet the idea that he did try to coduct some ‘triggering experiments’ on the Skinwalker ranch seems plausible IMO.

        • Kandinsky says:

          Ola! As far as I recall, Vallee hasn’t visited the Ranch and definitely signed a NDA with the NIDS team – he said so on Tim Binnall’s show years ago.

          However, he has vouched for the accounts from the Ranch and it’s those very accounts that I, personally, find very hard to believe.

          ‘If’ they tried anything like I rambled about, it wouldn’t be with simple intent to deceive. It’d be done with the broader aim of pulling the Cheshire Cat’s tail and seeing if it noticed.

          Bigelow-wise – It’s possible someone associated with Bigelow and Vallee (one or both of them) had a decent enough idea to warrant paying the money for the MUFON database. A couple of hundred thousand $$ is a lot for the collected musings of (mostly) anonymous reporters. There might well be a good reason for Bigelow et al ‘air-gapping’ their plans and ideas if the Intelligence they suspect exists might also be an exceptional listener.


          Incidentally, BAAS was hacked a couple of years ago and the docs put up on pastebin. I read them all (tut tut!) and noticed that almost nothing referred to weird stuff and that the bulk of applicants for positions were well qualified. Several were top of the game qualified scientists which is what we’d expect to see. A couple of job applications from guys who thought they could bodyguard against alien attack 🙂

          @ – Greg – sorry about the dozen posts you must have received round the back. The site kept saying I couldn’t post and to check my settings.

  6. Charles Swenson says:

    This interview indicates new lenses that put “u-fool-ogy” in a focus indicating what lies beyond the superficial details of individual sightings. It is a welcome change from the ETH blather that controls so much discussion of the phenomena, and quite frankly the implications for a common substrate of a global collective consciousness are much more exciting than the us vs. them dichotomy that tends to guide speculation in the field.

    Duensing was unknown to me prior to this, and I can see why. It is dense material that really requires careful consideration and a much broader worldview. His “A Transit of Contingencies” makes this clear, and is worth the time and effort it takes to investigate, absolutely invaluable and worth every penny.

    Now my mind keeps trying to integrate this with George Hansen’s concept of liminal structural breakdown. As Alan Watts put it in his vastly under appreciated zen limerick…

    There once was a man who said though
    I think I know that I know,
    I’d still like to see
    The I that is me
    When I know that I know that I know….

    Thanks for the show, to both of you….

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