Dean Radin: Entangled Minds

ESP and psychokinesis (symbolized by “psi,” the 23rd letter of the Greek alphabet ) are still highly controversial concepts, at least in the basic science taught in most schools and waved as a banner by so-called skeptical groups. According to my guest, however, there is a quiet revolution among credentialed scientists that may lead to more open research into parapsychology.

Dr. Dean Radin has been on the forefront of this research for decades, performing  laboratory experiments, writing scientific papers, and doing statistical analyses of years of collected data. He has also written two popular books for a wider audience. The Conscious Universe, published in 1997, was an examination of the evidence for psychic functioning and some of the implications for the knowledge of its existence. Entangled Minds was released in 2006 and continued Dr. Radin’s careful look at the evidence and described possible theories to explain psi.

On this program, we discussed Dr. Radin’s background and his early interest in paranormal topics, and how this led him to a career as a working parapsychologist. We then looked at the rocky early history of quantum theory (which forms the basis of a possible working theory of psychic phenomena) and how its acceptance among more scientists would be the basis of a possible renaissance of psychic research.

Dr. Radin’s next book will be entitled Super Normal: Science, Yoga, and the Evidence For Extraordinary Psychic Abilities, which will be published next year.

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27 Responses to Dean Radin: Entangled Minds

  1. GW says:

    Awesome interview Greg! Please get the philosopher Stephen Braude on. Also, did you know Ray Stanford’s brother is a parapsychologist? Would love for you to have Ray and his brother on at the same time!

    • Sagacious says:

      I second the nomination of Stephen Braude as a guest. He is a first rate philosopher-parapsychologist.

      • Greg says:

        I’ll have to read some of Braude’s stuff. What do you recommend?

        • Sagacious says:

          The Limits of Influence is Braude’s definitive treatment of the reality of PK. He focuses on case studies.
          The Gold Leaf Lady and Other Parapsychological Investigations records his survey of a variety of phenomena, including a lady who exudes “gold leaf” from her skin.

        • GW says:

          Hi Greg. I think The Gold Leaf Lady is the most accessible if you want to read one of his books before interviewing him- though he has a lot of stuff on the web. I think he was instrumental in getting the Ted Serios archives for the university where he used to work (he’s recently retired)- I recall reading an article he wrote about Serios. He also got a lot of grief from hardcore pseudo-skeptics at the university for his work in parapsychology. He got tenure before delving into parapsychology so they couldn’t get rid of him. So I think there’s a lot you could talk to him about- Ted Serios, the anti-parapsychology mindset that is prevalent in academia, his recent work with the Felix Experimental Group (a seance group in Germany he’s recently been investigating), his interest in people like the great medium DD Home and the history of psychical research. Oh yeah, his wife worked for the Serbian mafia as an astrologer and was apparently quite successful. So maybe talk about that as well. Here’s his website:

          And here’s a recent interview with him from a couple weeks ago where he talks about his work with the German seance group amongst other things. The interview starts after 30 minutes:

          I would love to hear him interviewed by you. You have such a laid back style and don’t feel the need to act like the smartest guy in the room- you’re willing to learn from your guests, which in turn makes it easier for us to learn from them. And you give them space to roam- your conversations often go into interesting and unexpected directions.

  2. Petroglyphs!

    i have to plug my brother’s photography site here – he lives in NM (near Alamagordo, natch) and has taken many gorgeous pix of stunning petroglyphs in pretty remote places (he’s a stud and can hike for miles). Feast yer eyeballs here:

    back to regular programming…..

    re: Steven Braude. If you interview him, i’d be interested to know what measures he took to help the ‘gold leaf’ lady exit the abusive relationship which (according to him) was causing her the stress which led to her psychic outbreaks (or whatever he called it). okay, on to listening to Doc Radin! steph

    • Greg says:

      Beautiful pictures! Which Braude book do you recommend?

      • Hi Greg! yeah, baby brother rocks 🙂 i’ve not read any of Braude’s books, i have listened to a # of interviews with him on you tube:

        i wasn’t all that impressed with Braude as a researcher. He spends a lot of time sounding ‘insightful’ and ‘sensitive’ about how he links the gold leaf lady’s PK to the frustrating/abusive elements in her life (socioeconomic status, illiteracy, abusive mate) but i have yet to see him anyplace taking any actions to help her in these troubles (ESL class, 800 for domestic violence, etc.). Of course there’s an obvious conflict of interest there for him – “Katy” gets a better, happier life and if his theory is correct the PK calms down. OTOH, there’s a nice little experiment for him to try.

        To me these are very relevant and pressing issues, but he has never addressed them that i can find (anyone please point me to any resources which contradict me, i would be happy to know about them!). I frankly find Braude’s relationship with the Gold Leaf Lady verging on the exploitative at worst, condescending at best. I certainly would understand any subject’s reluctance to enter into any type of investigative relationship with Braude. There’s nothing in it for the ‘investigatee’, except to be subject to Braude’s psycho-babble ‘explanations’.

        That said, i WOULD HIGHLY recommend that you interview Jeffrey Mishlove onhis book “The PK Man” about his relationship with uber-psychic/modern shaman Ted Owens. Interestingly enough, Mishlove’s book contains extensive discussions about the role of respect in the relationship of psychic to researchers and to society at large – how this effects the various manifestations which emanate from/thru the psychic. Mishlove documents the ups and downs of his relationship with Owens, pretty honestly it seems. They both come out with visible failings as well as good points.

        Mishlove also talks about the theoretical aspects of investigating spontaneous or very large-scale PK events, current physics thinking which could shed light on this typ of PK, the interrelationship of every single type of paranormal event (cryptboogies, polterpoos, UFOs and entities, ‘rain making’ and other weather influences, healing, clairvoyance, and so on – even influencing sporting event outcomes!), even looking at the question of can you teach people to manifest UFO sightings.

        Mishlove goes into the various ways he, Owens, and others sought to document/focus Owens’ PK activities in ways that would provide more fodder for scientific proof and analysis, pointing out what worked, what didn’t, why, possible improvements, and etc. This is especially refreshing to me – so many researchers/commentators just throw up their hands, ‘ah, well, there’s naught we can do these events are so unpredictable/random/too slippery/insert excuse here’.

        But Mishlove is among those who are actually grappling with how to extract meaningful ideas from the vast amount of info that we DO have. Let’s face it, the problem with paranormal/UFO studies isn’t a paucity of data, it’s a paucity of new ways of approaching the data. “The PK Man” addresses this issue very thoroughly.

        also – why hasn’t anyone tried to interview Jenny Randles about her Rendlesham investigation? She was on the scene with in weeks of the event, armed with science teaching and journalistic credentials and experience. She’s another investigator i’m dying to hear more from!

        Aren’t ya glad ya asked? 😉 Happy Longer Days!!! w00t! steph

        • GW says:

          I think the carefree way Steph has just condemned Braude is ridiculous. Neither of us knows what all Braude has or has not done to try and help Katie- yet you have no problem portraying him as an exploitative dirtbag. As far as I can tell, he’s always come across as sympathetic to her plight, but IMO there’s only so much he can or should be expected to do. Katie works with the police, why don’t you condemn this as well, surely they could do more for her than Braude, even though we also have no idea what they may or may not have done. Would you have them forcibly remove her and lock her up in a shelter against her will- do you want to live in a society where grown women are not allowed to make their own decisions? She has people in her life who are far closer to her than Braude (who lives thousands of miles away in Las Vegas, he’s recently retired). If you want to condemn someone, surely they should come in for more condemnation than Braude? If you’re really concerned about Katie, instead of being so sickeningly judgmental and ranting about how a researcher has somehow failed her , why don’t YOU get involved and try to help her out- wouldn’t that be more productive? I suspect this is how you spend much of your life, looking for things to get outraged about and blame men for. It just sucks that Braude, who seems to be a nice enough guy, has ended up being your most recent target. It’s also ignorant of you to suggest his thinking regarding what MIGHT (he seems to be certain of very little) in part behind the activity is “psycho babble”. I think most researchers think things like RSPK tend to happen more often in environments where there is a great deal of stress- pick up a book on poltergeists by the late William Roll if you doubt this. Braude is no intellectual lightweight. To imply he hasn’t done his homework and is not familiar with the literature is just silly- I suspect he’s spent more time seriously looking into these issues than you and me combined. Finally, I do agree with you that Mishlove would be a great guest. The PK Man was an entertaining book. It’s been years since I read it but wasn’t the subject an alcoholic? Did Mishlove get him into a treatment center? If not, why didn’t you slam Mishlove just as severely as you did Braude? In conclusion, sorry if this pisses you off. You seem nice enough, but your attack on Braude really rubbed me the wrong way. It struck me as unfair and thoughtless.

  3. I’m gonna have to replay this jewel of an interview a good dozen times in order to absorb all the mind-noms delivered by the good doctor. Fortunately he has such an affable tone of voice it’s quite easy to use it as a background while at work 🙂

    Thank you for this Greg. I almost forgive you for being such a huevón in 2012 😛

    • Greg says:


      I will continue to be lazy as my job takes a lot out of me, and I find less people make me excited enough to interview. Perhaps things will change a bit after I get my flying license and have more time and brain space again.

      • Well you should definitely come to the Paradigm Symposium next year in Minneapolis. Maybe that will inspire you and/or rekindle your passion for the field.

        In any case, I’m gonna try to convince the powers at be to have you as one of the speakers! 😉

        • Why don’t y’all have a meetup here in the bay area? then i could attend!!!! yippee!! due to a # of physical troubles/med conditions i really dont’ travel well at all, it pisses me off no end i couldn’t make the P.S. 🙁

          yours in self-pity, steph

  4. Bob Bobson says:

    Good interview. The question Bishop called ‘stupid’ was one that Radin actually sort of danced around — the problem of measurement. It’s all well and good to say people are influencing quantum events, but if you’re relying on measurement to confirm this — and measurement is somehow constitutive of things themselves — then is it the people influencing quantum events or the measurement later that ‘creates’ them? To use Radin’s term, is there retrocausation when the results are compiled a year later?

    It all comes down to what ‘measurement’ is. It doesn’t make sense to suppose that only a living consciousness ‘measures’. If there’s any independent reality at all, Schroedinger’s cat is ‘measured’ the instant the decay particle hits the meter — in other words, as soon as the state interacts with its environment. Any interaction at all ought to be enough for it to become ‘actual’.

    • Greg says:

      If I remember correctly in the interview, he described a possible way to get around the measurement conundrum, although I probably didn’t quite get how it was done. Or maybe I did.

      • Bob Bobson says:

        I wouldn’t say so. The ‘out’ was that the human ‘observation’ events were triggered at staggered random intervals. So because of the correlation between the random but recorded observation events and the measured deviation, some sort of causation was inferred.

        But put like this, you might as easily say that looking at the data later retroactively ‘fixed’ how the random intervals were assigned, constituting the random intervals and the consciousness(es) affecting them together as a combined event.

  5. dia sobin says:

    Interesting interview, Greg, with a fascinating man; but I found myself confused by number of mixed messages… no doubt “mixed” due to the nature of the subject discussed. It seems that the minute “quantum” is thrown into the mix, the mind boggles.

    My only real input regards the point in the interview (approximately at 1:34:00), when you brought up the matter of “sparkly objects” seemingly interfering with remote viewing. I found Radin’s response a little disappointingly vague and dismissive.

    I have had the experience, corroborated by others, that reflected light off “sparkly objects” can and does produce physically felt sensations at or around the vicinity of top of the head. The sensation has a pseudo-magnetic quality, but is difficult to describe. That being said, it seems that whatever is “doing” the remote viewing might be, at least, in part, mechanistic and/or neurological and, therefore, might also be physiologically effected by light. Perhaps some part of the brain, or the brain itself does have “complex neural mechanisms” like an eye. In mysticism there is the “third eye” and “crown chakra” concepts, but, in this case, mysticism doesn’t really have to be involved… And, perhaps, using mystical terms should be avoided when discussing these subjects as they only give reactionary skeptics something to negatively react to.

    As an artist, mysticism is part of my job description, but, to paraphrase Radin, he mentions a “structure or medium which connects everything”, which is a beautiful concept and which might ultimately provide the connective between mechanistic science and the spiritual. But, also, in a (currently unknown) measurable way, it might also be a factor with light’s interaction with the brain. For instance, in a rudimentary comparison, the brain’s pineal gland is thought to possess cells that evolved from photoreceptor cells – like those present in the eye.

    I reluctantly comment anywhere these days, Greg, but I just thought I’d toss in those proverbial two cents…

    Keep on keepin’ on! 🙂

    • >”Perhaps some part of the brain, or the brain itself does have “complex neural mechanisms” like an eye.”

      The pineal gland, which has been associated as the ‘seat of the soul’ by numerous traditions, and is also known as the 3rd eye, is indeed biologically resemblant of an eye.

      As Wikipedia explains: “Pinealocytes in many non-mammalian vertebrates have a strong resemblance to the photoreceptor cells of the eye. Some evolutionary biologists believe that the vertebrate pineal cells share a common evolutionary ancestor with retinal cells.”

    • Greg says:

      Hey Dia, Good to see you here again!

      I like your description of the mystical angle of perception. No one here should really care what reactionary (or “fundamentalist” as I call them) skeptics complain about. There are actually some valid and civilized criticisms of Radin’s work available online. I don’t think that their arguments knock down the entirety of Radin’s (an other researchers’) work to the point where the study of parapsychology becomes invalid, though.

      • dia sobin says:

        Hi Greg! Actually, I wasn’t really making an argument for mystical approaches… and, in the case of the “sparkly” effect, was throwing into the mix a possibly physical (albeit unknown and/or undocumented) cause.

        I admire Dean Radin’s work tremendously… I only wish he’d inspire others to enter the scientific field of parapsychology. But, I also wish that scientific study was more holistic and integrated, employing all the various resources at hand.

        In other words, we need more scientists who have the ability to connect dots! 😉

  6. drew hempel says:

    Glad to see Radin’s new book is on yoga. I sent him the randomized controlled research results showing “external qi” having “very impressive” healing of chronic pain, untreatable by western medicine for over five years. This was peer-reviewed published research:

    Chunyi Lin has said he is willing to be tested for further science research. Check out the amazing testimonials of people he has healed of serious diseases — like a rare lung disease that otherwise required a lung transplant or healings of late term cancer or M.S. healings or severe epilepsy, etc.

    Here is one local news story that covers some amazing healings:

    Yeah so the “how” is the big question and the answer is found in an excellent book “Taoist Yoga: Alchemy and Immortality” translated by Charles Luk —

    Anyway of course Radin’s description of the actual quantum experiments was confusing to say the least – I’ve read tons of quantum consciousness books by quantum scientists and they’re all frustratingly vague. The kicker is the question Greg raised about observation versus measurement. There was one good explanation of this on youtube…. I’ll see if I can find it. Yeah here it is – Dr. Campbell’s explanation of consciousness and the double slit — I think is very clear.

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